Citation: Murple. "After the Initial Tsunami Wave: An Experience with BDB, Methylone & DPT (exp94598)". Erowid.org. Jan 26, 2012. erowid.org/exp/94598
| T+ 1:58
| T+ 1:58
| T+ 3:05
||(powder / crystals)
| T+ 6:14
||Pharms - Zolpidem
||(pill / tablet)
9-10 December, 2011
: Home alone at my apartment
BDB is a somewhat obscure substance that was briefly available on the grey market in late 2003 and early 2004. It was discovered by Alexander Shulgin, who also gave it the name 'J' in his book PIHKAL (using a naming scheme based on San Francisco's Muni rail system, a naming system that doesn't appear to have obtained any use outside of Shulgin's writings). It is an analogue of MDA, with the alpha-methyl replaced by an ethyl function. It bears the same relationship to MBDB that MDA bears to MDMA, namely that MBDB and MDMA both have a methyl function on the side chain nitrogen. I personally feel that I get identical effects from MDA and MDMA, and doubt I could tell one from the other in a blind test. This doesn't seem to hold true for BDB and MBDB, however.
I hadn't been planning on using any psychedelic type drugs this weekend, as I've been using MDMA and various analogues as well as 2C-D, 5-MeO-DALT and MIPT most weekends for quite some time and thought a break would be nice. However, unforeseen events resulted in my plans for the evening being cancelled, and I decided to try BDB (I had access to enough to try it another time had it turned out that I had too much of a tolerance to serotonergics to get decent results).
Initially, due to those tolerance concerns, I planned on trying it at 230mg, the highest recorded dose I could find in the literature. However, while tolerance resulting in wasting rare material concerned me, finding only 6 reports (3 brief ones in PIHKAL, a brief paragraph on a somewhat low quality web forum, and reports posted to my web forums by internet friends feign & xtorris) also concerned me - especially as some people alluded to it being almost overwhelmingly powerful and anxiogenic at first. In the case of the 2 most concerning reports, they were written by friends who had not yet tried MDMA at the time they tried BDB, and online discussions with one of them before my BDB experiment indicated that his anxiety had been caused by the suddenness, intensity & unfamiliarity with the sensations. The effects were perceived as pleasant, but as he wrote, 'I felt a flash of 'oh man, not this for hours'.' I suspect that the initial effects of BDB are similar to the initial rush from MDMA, and that any anxiety was due to a new experience. Someone familiar with MDMA and its relatives probably would find it familiar and welcome. Nevertheless, I decided to cut my initial dose back to 210mg (a higher initial dose than in any of the reports other than the 230mg report in PIHKAL).
Many of these reports mention a quick come up of as little as 20 minutes. I decided that if I didn't feel a satisfactory level at the 1 hour mark, I would consider boosting with more BDB or perhaps some methylone (BDB giving the pure experience of course, while methylone's mostly dopaminergic activity likely has more chance of getting around any serotonergic tolerance issues).
Experience Notes (Edited from a Handwritten Log)
11:29PM - The capsule of BDB was just swallowed.
11:44PM - Slight alert at the 15 minute mark... mostly just the vague physical sensations that are the first barely perceptible effects felt when taking any psychedelic drug (including entactogens like MDMA and pseudo-entactogens like the beta-ketone analogues of MDMA or MBDB).
11:53PM - Over 20 minutes, not much beyond the alert I felt at 15 minutes. A slight increase, but nothing major. All reports seem to suggest it hits fast and with little warning though, so I probably shouldn't look for much in the way of gradual onset. I will stick with the original plan of waiting for the T+1h point before considering any boost with either more BDB or methylone .
12:04AM - The initial vague alert sensations have evolved into feeling slightly warm & tingly; things look 'brighter'... but still not that much going on.
12:11AM - Maybe some minor nystagmus now.
12:20AM - Significant increase in the past 2-5 minutes of nystagmus and the physical sensations of having taken a psychedelic (in ways more like a classic psychedelic than like MDMA). I'm nearing the 1 hour point. I'm considering booster options, but then this could kick in before that's needed... I decided to prepare both 40mg BDB and 30mg methylone capsules, and would decide later if I wanted to take either or both.
12:27AM - OK, here we go! Unless it stops climbing here, this could get interesting. Pretty good now though. Holding my cellphone, it appeared as though a ghostly transparent extension of the glass' reflectivity & white backlight spread several inches over my hand past the physical screen.
12:32AM - I tell online friends 'Boost may not be necessary.' I decide to go try lying in bed in the dark and doing breath work to help bring on the effects.
12:46AM - Guess that was the whole rush. Pretty MDMA like, more so than MBDB is. Wish I'd started with 220mg or even the 230mg I originally planned, but this is good enough that I'm still undecided on a booster. I'm going back to lie down in the dark and make use of Dr. Weil's pranayama-based 'relaxing breath' (or the '4-7-8 breath pattern'), one of the most incredible tools I've discovered for use with psychedelics - with MDMA it frequently leads to out of body experiences, full immersion 'virtual reality' closed eye interactive visions, time stoppage, and oneness with the mind of the universe. With many phenethylamines, whether MDMA-class or mescaline-class, similar effects are possible, though MDMA seems to be the best for this. With most psychedelic or pseudo-entactogens, it generally at least leads to a perceived intensification of the experience, making it a useful tool with lower doses or with milder psychedelics.
1:21AM - Wow, almost T+2h? The breathwork must've been more effective than I thought, haha! Just took both booster capsules, the 40mg of BDB & 30mg of methylone. As it is, this is perhaps of comparable intensity to 100-110mg of MDMA taken with no tolerance, but less visual and not thermogenic; also, like with MBDB, it's much harder to focus the mind on one topic than with MDMA. The mind flits about. It's as though, like with MBDB, it's a sort of 'subliminal MDMA.' Whereas with MDMA, thoughts are crystal clear and internal dialog is dominant, with BDB & MBDB it feels as if thoughts are just as active & intense, but move just barely 'under the surface.' Not trying to focus on them, strong impressions of them flit by - but trying to bring them to the surface & focus them usually just draws blankness. PIHKAL refers to 'mental nystagmus' from this molecule and I think there's something to that, thus my use of the verb 'flit' in reference to thoughts moving through the conscious and subconscious minds.
Unlike MDMA, where I generally have very vivid imagery with my eyes closed (almost as if moving bodilessly through a 3 dimensional world), with BDB there is an almost total lack of closed eye visual activity. There was one big exception during and shortly after the initial BDB rush, however.
There is a girl, who I will call Alpha, that works in the same building as me. While I noticed her sometime in late April, I first met her in early June. After a car crash-related near death experience, I suddenly found myself having a serious crush on her and, feeling unusually uninhibited after the accident, I approached her to introduce myself and inform her of this fact. A couple weeks later, she disappeared without warning -- being a contractor, she was apparently moved to another agency on the same contract. Six months later, around Thanksgiving, I was in line buying lunch when I looked up and to my surprise saw Alpha back on the job. She didn't notice me that day, but we met in the hallway the next day and she has been saying hello, asking how I'm doing, and making smalltalk ever since. At first, undecided whether I still had any interest in her and also being somewhat embarrassed about the way I'd introduced myself, I was sort of avoiding her, so she was almost always the one to initiate conversations. Recently, she took several days off, and in her absence I found myself suddenly upset, worried that she'd been transferred again, and regretting not more actively engaging her in conversation.
When I saw she was back again a few days later, I made a point of walking up to her and saying hello. While most of our conversations since her long absence have been very basic 'Hi, how are you?' exchanges, this first time I walked up to say hi to her was a little odd. After the initial greetings she said something quiet that sounded like, 'You're not avoiding me!' - not quite realizing what she said until later, I just smiled and continued with a normal but brief conversation. We talked briefly each time we crossed paths after that, it becoming a normal part of my daily routine. I've been quite unhappy with this job lately, and seeing Alpha's smile and talking to her briefly once or twice around lunchtime has been the brightest beam of joy illuminating an otherwise stressful and often annoying workday. I decided any romantic interest in her had probably faded, but that I definitely wanted to cultivate a friendship with her - though I wouldn't rule out other possibilities if they came up.
So, as I was saying, BDB is decidedly non-visual, at least internally. While lying in the dark breathing, I had nothing remotely like the vivid imagery of MDMA or even the flimsy dreamlike visions of some related drugs... with one exception. During, and for some time after, the initial rush of the BDB kicking in, very detailed visions of Alpha would flit through my mind repeatedly, which I found peculiar as I was not consciously thinking of her at all. The imagery came unbidden, non-contextualized & unexpectedly through my mind. The emphasis was on her face - her skin a soft caramel tan, framed by straight, dark sandy hair loosely tied back into her customary low but short pony tail. She has a face that smiles more with her eyes than her mouth. Looking rather different from the women I usually find attractive, she nevertheless is very cute, having a face somewhat reminiscent of Laura Breckenridge -- but it was almost more some sort of energy, as if a projection of her personality, that drew me to her. Images of her flit by wordlessly, often seeming to arise a ways in front of me then grow closer and zoom through and off behind me, her face seeming an endlessly expressive continuum of happiness and surprise - often apparently as part of conversations I could not hear. Her body, a curvier departure from the petite women I usually find attractive, is a vague and fuzzed border zone of the imagery... when I focus, I'm aware of her wearing her most common work clothes (she seems to only own a handful of work outfits which she cycles through rather quickly - something I have in common with her, this being the first real job I've had which has had anything resembling a dress code). However hard I try, though, there is nothing beyond her in the visions. She is a sharply focused, beautiful face, connected to a fuzzy body, fully clothed though not always fully present... floating in a sea of contextual void; there is no background scenery, no other people are present, not even myself, and though I see her joyously talking and laughing, there is no sound. It is as if Alpha is the traveller in the engraving from Camille Flammarion's 'L'atmosphère: météorologie populaire
' - her face beaming into the outer heavens I inhabit, while the rest of her remained behind in her world, obscured by the veil of the firmament.
This passed soon after the initial tsunami wave of the BDB receded, and what it means, I couldn't say... but I was quite surprised when I saw Alpha at work on Monday, as on her left ring finger, there is now a ring not there before with a rather large stone. I initially assumed it to be an engagement or wedding ring, and while I haven't asked her about it (I was a little stunned when I first noticed it, so I just continued our conversation without mentioning it)... if she got engaged or married that Friday night, that would be quite an odd coincidence - and I've had some very unusual coincidences occur with MDMA visions and simultaneous real world events. However, when I mentioned the ring to a friend, she pointed out Alpha's recent tendency to start conversations with me and the fact that most people would take off a really valuable ring if doing the sort of work Alpha does, and suggested that it may be a cubic zirconium ring worn to ward off unwelcome advances (something I've known other women to do) or simply for aesthetic reasons. She is only 23 or 24, which is a little young to be getting married, though hardly uncommon. I'm not sure it matters too much for my intentions, but... curious!
Oddly, despite the fact that she was the only vision I had, I didn't find myself consciously thinking about her or my intentions towards her, though I suspect that a lot of this was happening subconsciously. The only conscious thoughts related to these visions was an observation that it seemed odd that there were no other closed eye visuals, and why her? Regarding the former, that just seems to be the nature of BDB... regarding the latter, I genuinely don't know. At times, I feel as though I'm happy with our current arrangement where she is a happy moment in my day, with no significant depth, but also with no complications - just a friendly smile. Other times, the feelings that led me to quite uncharacteristically introduce myself to her come back, and I wonder if she is (or was) somebody worth pursuing romantically. Most often, however, I think I should try deepening our conversations with the goal of growing a real friendship. Whatever subconscious thought processes may have been happening on the BDB, the moment I saw her first on Monday, I felt with absolute clarity that I should make no decisions and simply let each encounter play out as it will, doing what feels right in the moment rather than trying to fit things into any long-term goal.
Noticing the ring didn't change the certainty I felt and still feel... I almost always have a specific direction I want my relationships with women to take, and while I may change my mind as to what that is over time, it still tends to at least semi-consciously affect my actions. Letting things unfold without trying to guide outcomes, at least with this one girl, seems to be the big lesson from this experience.
While this was the sole experience of any sort of close eye visuals, minor open eye visual activity was present in the form of both mild nystagmus and shimmering pale color fields that would appear occasionally over some surfaces, almost like there was a coating of some very thin, palely colored Saran Wrap. This mostly appeared over things that were relatively uniform looking, such as undecorated areas of the walls, tabletops, or my skin.
I find myself wishing that BDB shared MDMA's thermogenic properties, as it is quite cold in here. Even under a wool blanket, it is uncomfortably cold.
2:22AM - BDB is great material, though of course, it's hardly a full MDMA substitute. The booster brought it up great for a while, but things do seem ever so slightly... less. Often times, with MDMA-class drugs, I find using DPT either at the peak or at the point where I first notice effects decreasing gives a fantastic therapeutic headspace. I wonder how BDB would mesh with DPT? Well, I'd imagine... hmmm...
2:34AM - Weighed out 15mg DPT & snorted half.
2:48AM - Snorted the remainder of the DPT.
3:33AM - Wow! As expected, DPT mixes fantastically with BDB, as it does with every MDMA-class substance I've combined it with. DPT (at least in the form of insufflated hydrochloride salt) is itself not particularly visual, though it did bring on some nice closed eye visions and noticeably enhanced the color fields already present from the BDB. The DPT didn't much alter the feel of the experience, however it amplified it, in essence bringing me back to the first hour of the BDB experience but with the addition of some tryptamine flavored close eye visual activity. It also added or amplified a few classic psychedelic effects such as altered time perception... however, BDB's inner silence did not make way for the inner dialog that is a common element of DPT trips. That said, 15mg is a rather low dose for DPT, and I wouldn't have expected it to make a major difference in headspace.
4:25AM - Still very high. Nystagmus, colors, and a strong MDMA-ish feel. Pupils are huge! Time fluctuates between dilation and contraction. Thoughts are still hard to hold in focus, they fly by so quickly - I can tell a lot is going on, but strangely on a subconscious level, even more as things very gradually glide down. The main negative is a sore neck (which could be coincidental) and I'm about to take 2 Alleve for it. That said, BDB seems to lack MDMA's jaw clenching and other muscle-tensing side effects. I suspect my sore neck has more to do with the way I've been sitting on the floor as I write these notes.
Clouds have the moon hidden, so I won't be able to see this morning's lunar eclipse. I'm not all that upset since I probably only could've really seen the start, as totality is around 8AM. Also, it's damn cold and standing outside for more than a moment is not an appealing notion. Still, it was nice to know that the eclipse was happening tonight (well, this morning).
5:43AM - Still going strong! Went outside, the clouds have cleared, leaving a cold celestial light show in their place. The stars and moon are magnificently brightened by both the cold air and the drugs, and a receding front of clouds shimmers ghostly in the moonlight. Unfortunately, it seems the eclipse doesn't begin until 7:45. So, I think I'll take an Ambien and try to sleep. BDB goes on the 'good' list!
I was quite impressed with BDB. Given the tolerance I surely had, I got way more out of it than I expected. I suspect my original plan of 230mg would've been of comparable intensity to 120-130mg of MDMA with no tolerance. I think after a few weeks with no phenethylamines (or any psychedelics other than perhaps some short-acting tryptamines) I'll be giving it another go - perhaps even at the full 230mg. As much as I liked what was surely a significantly toned down experience, I'd really like to see what this molecule can do at full power.
I felt rather spacey the next day, and there seemed to be a lingering anorexic effect I don't recall having from other related substances. After making Thai peanut chicken for dinner, I struggled to eat even half a breast, feeling so full that I thought I'd end up feeling ill were I to eat more. Neither of these day-after effects were all that bothersome though; nothing worse than the day after a solid dose of MDMA or LSD. In some ways, the first few hours after waking, it felt like a mild continuation of the BDB high, which was enjoyable and not really what I'd classify as a hangover.
While I did a low dose of DPT around 2:30-3AM, I had some visual activity until I went to sleep. Some of this may have been the BDB itself, as I had some mild visuals long before the DPT (such as the colors described earlier). Next time I try BDB will be with no tolerance to this class of chemicals, and I will likely go with a higher initial dose and no booster or mixing with other psychedelic drugs... I'm curious what visual activity, if any, will result.
BDB was quite similar to MBDB, unsurprisingly, but there did seem to be some significant differences. For me, MBDB tends to come on slowly (often more than an hour) and in a gradual fashion that lacks an MDMA-like rush. It simply builds over time until suddenly I realize 'Oh, I'm there... and have been for a little while.' (In a study by David Nichols, Sasha Shulgin et al., 14 volunteer subjects familiar with MDMA were given MBDB and the reported consensus was MBDB had a slower and gentler onset than MDMA and produced little of the anxiety that can sometimes accompany the onset of MDMA.) While I have only this one BDB experience for comparison, and (likely due to tolerance issues) did not experience either the rapid onset or intense rush described in other BDB reports, I've used MBDB enough that I can't imagine MBDB producing these results except perhaps with extremely large doses. Also, I found BDB neither particularly sedative nor stimulant - though I suppose 'stoning' is a term some have used that I could perhaps agree with, depending how it's defined. MBDB however has given effects that I would consider somewhat sedating, in addition to the 'stoning' feel it has in common with BDB. However, it's possible that with more BDB experiences, I may find it can sometimes also be mildly sedating.
MBDB seemed to produce more nystagmus (in fact, it's given me more nystagmus than MDMA or any other analogues I've tried), but it does not produce the shimmering color fields I got from BDB. Neither drug has thus far given me significant closed eye visions, and the brief visions of Alpha that I experienced during the BDB come up simply don't compare to the very realistic, virtual reality type experiences I get from MDMA, MDA, etc. Most significantly, BDB seems to have a much longer duration than MBDB.
Experiments in rats have shown that while BDB and MBDB both have 'strong inhibitory effects on the re-uptake of dopamine, 5-HT and norepinephrine,' BDB also strongly increases the release of dopamine, serotonin and norepinephrine (noradrenaline), while MBDB causes very little dopamine release. Both drugs inhibit re-uptake of these 3 neurotransmitters by binding to their transporter proteins, the same mechanism by which SSRI antidepressants inhibit serotonin re-uptake. The transporters for serotonin, dopamine and norepinephrine are known as SERT, DAT, and NET respectively. BDB is about six times less potent at binding to NET than MDMA is, but is equally potent at binding to SERT and DAT. MBDB, however, is not only eight times less potent than MDMA at NET, but also only half as potent at binding to SERT - though it is equally effective with BDB and MDMA at binding to DAT. Perhaps one or both of these differences explain why BDB seems to produce an intense and euphoric rush at onset? Who knows? Since many euphoric drugs used recreationally (such as cocaine) cause large releases of dopamine, it seems plausible that BDB's much greater dopamine release activity could explain the strong rush. It also seems possible that the somewhat weaker NET binding of MBDB could have something to do with it feeling more sedative than BDB.
It is also worth noting that just as MDMA produces MDA as a metabolite in urine (about 65% of a dose of MDMA is excreted unchanged, around 7% is excreted as MDA), research has shown that MBDB has BDB as a metabolite. The concentration of BDB and MBDB in urine peaks at around 4 hours after the dose, in case anybody is really into recycling and wants to re-use the drugs by either somehow extracting them or simply drinking the psychoactive piss - a practice employed by indigenous Siberian users of Amanita mushrooms, but an element of shamanism that I personally have no plans to ever experiment with.
I feel there is a learning curve with these two; also, that they would be better suited for use with at least one other person (whereas I prefer MDMA alone). The inner dialogue that is so prominent with MDMA makes it quite well suited for self-therapy, whereas BDB and MBDB do not share this feature. I suspect that in a group setting, they would promote conversation which would take the place of MDMA's internal dialogue, and this may result in a more conscious awareness of the flitting subconscious processes that seem to be the signature of both BDB and MBDB. MBDB, at least, has been reported to be quite successful in therapeutic settings involving a therapist and one or more patients. I suspect that both substances have great potential in those settings, while I'm as of yet uncertain as to their value for solo use. While I did not feel motivated to do much handwriting on BDB, perhaps writing on a computer or making voice recordings would be a good approach for solo therapeutic use. Alternatively, their potential in assisting with meditative techniques in the Buddhist tradition, where silencing the mind is the goal, seems very obvious. Hopefully I will have the opportunities to further explore BDB in these various applications.
1. Mayday. 'Re: BDB Drug Info.' http://www.drugs-forum.com/forum/showpost.php?p=722793&postcount=2
2. Nichols DE, Hoffman AJ, Oberlender RA, Jacob P 3rd, Shulgin AT. 'Derivatives of 1-(1,3-benzodioxol-5-yl)-2-butanamine: representatives of a novel therapeutic class.' J Med Chem 1986;29:2009-15.
3. Nagai F, Nonaka R, Satoh Hisashi Kamimura K. 'The effects of non-medically used psychoactive drugs on monoamine neurotransmission in rat brain.' Eur J Pharmacol. 2007 Mar 22;559(2-3):132-7.
4. Montgomery T, Buon C, Eibauer S, Guiry PJ, Keenan AK, McBean GJ. Comparative potencies of 3,4-methylenedioxymethamphetamine (MDMA) analogues as inhibitors of [3H]noradrenaline and [3H]5-HT transport in mammalian cell lines. Br J Pharmacol. 2007 Dec;152(7):1121-30.
5. Kintz P. 'Excretion of MBDB and BDB in urine, saliva, and sweat following single oral administration.' J Anal Toxicol. 1997 Nov-Dec;21(7):570-5.
An Afterword on Experience Reports
This is the first experience report I've published in about 8 years, though not the only one I've written in that time. Reviewing my older reports, as well as many published reports from other authors, it seems to me that many of them are seriously lacking dimensions which I've tried to include in this report and hope to incorporate into future reports, especially when describing materials for which there is little published data.
The two main areas which I think could be improved upon in reports are background scientific data and more personal/emotional information which could allow the reader to more fully appreciate the mental set of the author. For example, I have seen reports (and have written some myself) which have statements which are likely quite meaningful to the author and perhaps a few close associates, but could be interpreted in multiple ways by a reader unfamiliar with the details. This is magnified by the (quite wise) anonymization of reports with names being replaced by initials, colors, or other codes. For example, numerous reports contain statements along the lines of 'I realized I love X.' There are many ways this could be interpreted. Is the author rediscovering already known feelings for X, or is this a surprising new revelation? What does 'love' mean? What are the genders of the author and X? Did the author just realize romantic feelings where only casual friendship was consciously felt before? Perhaps the author hated X before, and suddenly became aware of X's beautiful humanity and released the hate? Perhaps the author and X are both men, and the author just discovered a previously unrealized homosexual orientation in himself? How about when the drug wore off, did this realization of love survive the return to normal consciousness? While giving more details about one's feelings and situations may be somewhat difficult, exposing your heart to the world, it also helps the reader put themselves in the experience more fully.
In my future reports, I will try to provide more scientific and personal context for the things I write, as I hope I've done in this report. I would like to encourage other authors to do the same, at least when dealing with more obscure materials like BDB, where there are few published experience reports. Let's keep in mind that often, those of us writing the first few reports for an uncommon substance will have a profound impact on the experiences of people who follow in our footsteps and explore the same substance... and if nobody follows us, we may be the only visitor to some strange island, and our record the sole window to that place. Let's not cut corners, we're taking on a huge responsibility when trailblazing new places in the mind.
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Experience Reports are the writings and opinions of the individual authors who submit them.
Some of the activities described are dangerous and/or illegal and none are recommended by Erowid Center.